Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

topic posted Fri, December 15, 2006 - 3:16 PM by  Katrina
In researching the actual meaning of Karma, I find that it's a highly interpretable word that sometimes has to do with cause and effect and other times has nothing to do with cause and effect, but seems to be a more "personal reality" based concept. What does Karma mean to you?
"Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward. Karma simply deals with what is."
"What is" can always and constantly be changing, if we choose it to be. If we choose NOT to believe in something or to believe in it, then that is what, IMO, creates ultimate reality in the here and now.
What do you think?


Wikipedia definition :
Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म from the root kṛ, "to do") is a word of ancient origin meaning action or activity and its subsequent results (also called karma-phala, "the fruits of action"). It is commonly understood as a term to denote the entire cycle of cause and effect as described in the philosophies of a number of Dharmic Religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism.

Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. Individuals go through certain processes and accompanying experiences throughout their lives which they have chosen, and those would be based on the results of their own creations: "karma". Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward. Karma simply deals with what is. The effects of all deeds actively create past, present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to others. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well.

Throughout this process, many see God as playing some kind of role, for example, as the dispenser of the fruits of karma[1]. Other Hindus consider the natural laws of causation sufficient to explain the effects of karma.[2][3][4] Some interpretations of the Bhagavad Gita [5] suggest an intermediate view, that karma is a law of cause and effect yet God can mitigate karma for His devotees. Another view holds that a Sadguru, acting on God's behalf, can mitigate or work out some of the karma of the disciple. [6][7][8]

The "Law of Karma" is central in Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, and Jainism (religions born in India and Nepal). All living creatures are responsible for their karma - their actions and the effects of their actions - and for their release from samsara. As a term, it can be traced back to the early Upanishads.

The Law of Karma is taught in the esoteric Christian tradition, Essenian and later Rosicrucian, as the "Law of Cause and Consequence/Effect" [9]. However, this western esoteric tradition adds that the essence of the teachings of Christ is that the law of sin and death may be overcome by Love, which will restore immortality.

Actions do not create karma (good or bad) only when the actions are performed by an individual in the state of Moksha. Such a person is called "Stithaprajna". Adi Sankara gave the dictum of "Akarmaiva Moksha" which means "Moksha can be attained only by doing, not by a process of effort". All actions performed by one in the state of Moksha are termed as Dharma.

Hindus believe that everything in the Universe is in the state of creation, maintenance or destruction. The Hindu trinity of Gods Brahma (creator), Vishnu (maintainer) and Shiva (Destroyer) correspond to the states of creation, maintenance and destruction. At the thought level, the mind creates a thought, maintains (follows) it for some time and the thought ultimately dies down (perhaps to be replaced by another thought). The Hindus believe there is a fourth state of being (called Turiya) where the mind is not engaged in thinking but just observes the thoughts. Actions in the Turiya state do not create karma. The practice of meditation is aimed at giving individuals the experience of being in the Turiya state. An individual who is constantly in the Turiya state is said to have attained Moksha. In such an individual, actions happen as a response to events (and not because of thought process); such actions do not result in accumulation of Karma.

The process view of release (moksha) from ego-consciousness (ahamkar) through individual responsibility for the totality of action with its inherent karma can be contrasted with the soteriological view of mainstream denominations of Christianity: grace given by faith in the suffering, death and resurrection of a singular savior.
posted by:
Katrina
Illinois
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

    Fri, December 15, 2006 - 9:17 PM
    I think Karma is the the inevitable consequences of Divine Law...as ye sow so shall ye reap...
    • Re: Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

      Fri, December 15, 2006 - 11:14 PM
      Sweep,

      What, in your opinion, does Divine Law mean? I'm looking to understand beyond the metaphor.

      Thank you for sharing,

      Katrina
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

        Tue, December 19, 2006 - 10:13 AM
        Divine law and Scientific Law are the same things. They are the absolute laws of the Universe. They dictate Reality as we know it. The more physical the dimension the more structured , the more rigid...the more spiritual the diemension the more free...there seem to be 7 dimensions and 7 levels in each dimension. We appear to be in the lowest dimension.

        To me law is law..it is the way things are irrespective of theory or belief. Divine Will and Divine Law and Scientific Laws are the same things but different words. All are Truth.
        • Re: Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

          Tue, December 19, 2006 - 11:10 AM
          Thanks Sweep.. Not sure if I believe the 49 "levels" of understanding / dimension theory, is this a Scientific notion? Seems very structured. Where did you come to find this information / possibly believe it?
          I do however, intrinsically believe in Divine Law, though I don't know what that Law is? Something inside gravitates towards that idea. I certainly hope that's not because I was raised Catholic... j/k
          I also agree with all three being truth.. Truth in different terms. Do you have suggestions as to where I can learn more about how the Scientific defines the Universal? I'm not a brainiac by any stretch, so I hope I can keep up with the material :)

          Thanks Sweep

          - Katrina
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

            Tue, December 19, 2006 - 12:16 PM
            Seeking knowledge of such things, karma is evident even here, now, your post moved me into action to write this post you may be affected or repelled or perhaps neutral...yet still you caused this writing.
            a little story....

            Once a person contacted me through the internet. Because of this person's interest (cause)
            I became interested.

            I joined tribe because of this connection...(effect)
            Since then I've met so many wonderful persons and yes affected a few, yet the intention of doing so was not
            at the heart of the interest and still they were affected and i by them.

            The western saying about not knowing where our influence begins and ends is a close analogy.

            This law of cause and effect because even in a molecular level is applicable, not to mention the macro scheme of the sun within our own solar/cosmic plane.

            "If I move a grain of sand, I change the universe."

            When you are attending this tribe or any of your daily attendances, they have reprecussions and the effect of your thoughts and perceptions.

            Have you never seen something you wanted and thought of it as yours only to have it come to you, even
            briefly?

            There is a zen way to have no preferences to outcome, yet karma is ever present when we engage to
            (in thought/mind/action)attend each occurence, person, place or thing in which we are invited or not invited (resentment) participate.

            Be curious, ask questions, dynamic flux of direct experience will point the finger at ultimate reality.

            There is perfection in everyone heart and such a longing for answers to these types of questions is key to the unfolding of a life of the Spirit.

            One more observation.

            Ever fixed your attention on somone you'd like to love you more?
            Did you notice that push or grasp of want creates a tension or feeling upon your chest?

            just a mere thought of lovelessness has cause and effect.
            • Re: Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

              Tue, December 19, 2006 - 1:47 PM
              Then Karma has nothing to really do with negative and positive. It is only cause and effect which could sometimes have to do with positive and negative, but positive experiences and negative ones are not a sole Bi-Product of Karma, only cause and effect are. It's reasonable then to say that, a positive reaction to something that someone did, could somewhere, down the line cause a negative one for another and vice versa.

              This is where I get confused with Karma. Some like to rub a you'll get what you deserve, philosophy in people's faces, and label it with the word Karma. I think that's a gross misrepresentation of what Karma actually is. I do not believe, at it's root, Karma has anything to do with results being positive / negative. We have opinions of what positive and negative are and we label those experiences, then sometimes call it Karma. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

              Love,

              Katrina
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

                Tue, December 19, 2006 - 2:39 PM
                Yes i do get you.
                Your meaning is clear. Negative and positive are perceptions and concepts of the minds ability to judge and make judgments.

                Unfortunately, in the West we have a blanket approach to words that we have not understood their true intent, not just because of the language of cool that allows a broad interpetation as in people using this word to say "oh man....karma!" but mostly the derivation of the root of the word orgin or may i say trying to become translated to an apropiate English synonym that fits kinda close.

                The binding action is due to the "I" that has a self centered desire contained within the action..that is it.

                "Karman, karma (“action”) — activity of any kind, including ritual acts; said to be binding only so long as engaged in a self-centered way; the “karmic” consequence of one’s actions; destiny"

                Peace and Love back!
                • Re: Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

                  Tue, December 19, 2006 - 2:55 PM
                  :) One more boulder removed on my path to understanding.

                  Thanks Yogisun!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Believing Less and Less in "Karma"

                    Wed, December 20, 2006 - 10:25 AM
                    I sense that the positive negative has to do with intention. If I have a positive intention eventually it will come back as positive energy...yet in between who knows what might happen?....(the ripple effect) because certainly if you intend to do something positive, much negativity can occur from the limited perspective of however you view it...and what you view and for how long you view it....we generally look at things in a very limited perspective and what can be good for us might not be seen....
  • Belief and creation of reality

    Fri, December 29, 2006 - 12:48 AM
    I don't believe that you can get out of karma just by deciding not to believe in it. Karma is part of the reality that we exist in, the reality that we - as the One - created and continue to create within this experience of life.

    As the article you quoted says, ultimately it is possible to transcend karma, but it is a much more involved process than simply not believing in it, or deciding to create something different. A mental process of deciding what you believe in, or even what makes sense to you, isn't nearly enough. Where would such a decision come from? Is it an act of Grace coming through your surrendered consciousness, or is it simply another way to try to escape that which is unpleasant? Escapism is the ego's favorite game to play, so any decision that comes from that place within you is ultimately just another karma-creating act.

    The only way out of karma is to surrender into it. Cease struggling with it, let it make all the adjustments and re-establishments-of-balance that it wants to, and it will eventually work itself out. But long before that happens, you will be Free, because you will no longer be in bondage to your ego.
    • Re: Belief and creation of reality

      Fri, December 29, 2006 - 1:03 AM
      I become a bit cross when people throw the word Karma around loosely without truly realizing it's profound meaning. I haven't a solid opinion formed to debate what I think. My concern was Karma having anything to do with Good and Bad. I feel like it doesn't and wanted feelings on what Karma, in their words, meant.
      You say we created it...and I don't disagree, I'd like your definition of what "It" is :)
      What does it mean to you exactly and how does it affect your experience? It's not easy to see the scope of Karma if it does in fact transcend this one life that we live. And I have a feeling it certainly does.

      Thanks for sharing

      Love,

      Katrina
      • Re: Belief and creation of reality

        Fri, December 29, 2006 - 1:19 AM
        My definition of karma basically comes down to cause and effect within the human experience. I like to leave it very open because I believe that there are many different kinds of karma - internal karma, external karma, and interpersonal karma, to name three that I'm familiar with; but I add "within the human experience" to put the laws of physics outside of this particular box.

        For the most part, I don't really think or worry about external karma, by which I mean past actions coming back to you. Although Grace can mitigate this to some extent, for the most part I believe that whatever I've put out there is already out there and there's nothing I can do but deal with it when it comes back, and to be the best person I can be so as not to create any more of it than necessary.

        Interpersonal karma - the karma of relationships, and the entanglements that they create - I do work on more often. When things get sticky between me and the people in my life, I accept that it's a karmic drama playing itself out, which helps me to be present with what's happening and not to get too ahead of myself in dealing with it.

        Internal karma - the way past experiences get projected onto present realities - is the main thing I focus on as far as karma goes. Past- and present-life conditioning seem to me to be the main source of suffering for me, so I spend a lot of time and energy looking at and letting go of those past wounds and the patterns that they create. This also helps me to be more compassionate and accepting of others, because I know from personal experience just how hard it is to stop acting from conditioning!

        Thank you for asking; I hope my feedback is helpful.
        • Re: Belief and creation of reality

          Fri, December 29, 2006 - 11:27 AM
          "My definition of karma basically comes down to cause and effect within the human experience."

          Do you think that your thought process may have the ability, if willed strongly, to transcend any circumstance. Just what is Real?
          Also, what I struggle with is Karmic Ripple. Something that I do which has positive reprocussions for me and the people close to me, may somewhere down the line have strong negative effects on a person whom I do not know. Ultimately, I live without awareness of Karma because I think it trascends the scope of what my brain is capable of processing. That balance is held together collectively through what we would call the good and the bad. I think life NEEDS both to be Physical Life at all.

          Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

          Katrina
          • Re: Belief and creation of reality

            Fri, December 29, 2006 - 7:47 PM
            "Do you think that your thought process may have the ability, if willed strongly, to transcend any circumstance."

            No, not like that. The creation of reality comes from a much deeper place than the mind. The way I see it, if you take 100 people who really put all of their will behind creating a new reality, 4 or 5 of them will be trying to will something that the Divine has already chosen for them, and so their new reality will be created, and then they'll tell everyone about how successful they were in creating a new reality. Then you have the 95 or 96 people who were trying to create something that the Divine wasn't interested in at all, so they fail and then look at the 4 or 5 success stories and think that they did something wrong, or didn't try hard enough, when in fact success and failure had absolutely nothing to do with them.

            The key thing that is missing here is *surrender*. Without that, you won't be in alignment with Divine Order, which is what is really in charge of the show.
            • Re: Belief and creation of reality

              Fri, December 29, 2006 - 9:03 PM
              Nathan,

              What is your definition of surrender?
              • Re: Belief and creation of reality

                Sat, December 30, 2006 - 2:00 AM
                That's a very good question, and unfortunately I don't have a very concise answer. I think the best way to describe it would be to say that it is the letting go of egoic will, in a way that allows you to become more present and connected to life. It's not a giving up in the "oh-woe-is-me" sense, or the sullen resignation sense. It's a saying "Yes!" to what is, and then participating fully with what is. This of course changes what is, but that change comes from a place of joy and spontenaity, rather than fear and domination.

                I hope I'm making sense. Thank you for your wonderful questions. I hope my answers are at least interesting, if not helpful.
                • Re: Belief and creation of reality

                  Sat, December 30, 2006 - 10:07 AM
                  Ok, I agree with that. In entirety, I agree as a matter of fact.
                  My next question to you is this... What is your definition of God?

                  I find that people sometimes butt heads when they are speaking from the same place, but using different terminology. I think it's ironic and a bit funny when that happens, I've been victim to it quite a bit. So.. :) I like to understand the abstracts of what another person beliefs are and if they line up with what I'm feeling or not. That way I can really enter into a good conversation.

                  - Katrina
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Belief and creation of reality

                    Sat, December 30, 2006 - 12:43 PM
                    I've fallen into that trap a lot myself, and you'd think that I'd learn to ask a person what he/she means by their words rather than launching off into contradiction based on my own definitions of their words, but human consciousness is often very dense, and I am no exception.

                    Regarding your question: It has become difficult recently for me to talk about God, because the very word seems to invoke a sense of separateness, as if God is "out there" and I am "in here", and on a deep feeling level that just seems wrong to me. Also, I couldn't really define God because no definition could actually point to the reality; so I really see "God" as Mystery. And yet that unknowable Mystery is what we all are, so it is also intrinsically known.

                    Aside from all that mumbo-jumbo, though, I will say that I think of God as the Self that is empty of form but fully conscious, which has created all that is, and experiences all of it simultaneously.
                    • Re: Belief and creation of reality

                      Sat, December 30, 2006 - 5:36 PM
                      Well, I agree. It seems we feel very similar. When I'm feeling more lighthearted, I like to say that our Souls are playing through experience. The good and the bad. Thought it's dificult to adopt a playful notion when pain and oppression are involved. When it is, I like to say that we're learning the things we set ourselves up to learn. Because I do feel like the threads of life are already in place, much like you said, there isn't much point in fighting or struggling. But...there are many threads and maybe our Souls are traveling through endless paths that weave in and out of other Soul's threads, the tip of the thread workng it's way through new experience. Maybe it's not all laid out... Maybe only the parameters are set by God....or the Collective God, and we are free to play as we will and learn as we will within the framework even though we already 'know' everything. We get to physically experience it.

                      Since the threads are inside of God, we are sure to never get lost, though I'd imagine the parameters are great in measure, so it seems like we are at times. I'm not sure every step of our physical and Spiritual Existence is pre mapped. I'd like to think that the parameters are laid out by God / Us, but the board is a completely open field. Does that make sense? So in the Ultimate sense, yes...our outcome is certain. But reaching the outcome (not to be confused with end) is our free choice. And when we reach the outcome (funny.. Out of the game, Come into God) who's to say that we don't branch off back into the threads to play again for awhile?

                      Imagine a circle of white light, the middle being our vast playground.
                      • Re: Belief and creation of reality

                        Sat, December 30, 2006 - 10:59 PM
                        I hear ya, and I agree totally. :)
                        • Re: Belief and creation of reality

                          Sat, December 30, 2006 - 11:17 PM
                          That's so nice to hear Nathan! Always feel free to bounce ideas and random thoughts off me, I'd be interested to hear them. And I'd like to do the same :)

                          Love,

                          Katrina
                          • Re: Belief and creation of reality

                            Thu, February 22, 2007 - 4:55 AM
                            OM JAI KINDRED SPIRIT

                            THIS BE VIVEKA'S HEART VIEW ON KARMA

                            KARMA IS THE TAO OF ACTION;
                            ETERNAL TRUTH PUT INTO MOTION IN THE REALITY OF MAYA;
                            IT IS THE INTERACTION OF YIN AND YANG IN THE SEEMING ILLUSION OF SEPARATION.

                            KARMA IS THE HISTORY OF OUR COSMIC JOURNEY OF FORGETTING AND REMEMBERING,
                            THAT BRINGS US INTO THE DARKNESS, AND TRANSFORMS US BACK INTO LIGHT.

                            KARMA IS THE HIGHEST FORM OF WORSHIP,
                            AS WE HONOR THE SOURCE OF OUR BEING (PERFECT LOVE AND ETERNAL TRUTH),
                            THROUGH DEVOTION IN THE MOTION OF ACTION WITHIN THE REALITY OF MAYA.

                            KARMA IS MAHA-MAYA;
                            THE SEEMING REALITY OF SEPARATION IN YIN/YANG BALANCE
                            HONORING ETERNAL TRUTH AND PERFECT LOVE IN ACTION.

                            KARMA IS THE GIFT OF ACTION WE CREATE FOR OUR BELOVED,
                            WHO ABIDES WITHIN OUR HEART, AT THE CENTER OF OUR BEING.

                            AS SOMEONE ALREADY SAID... " IT IS HOW IT IS."

                            IT IS HOW IT IS IN MAYA.
                            THOSE THAT UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF IS AND IS NOT
                            ARE NOT MOVED ADVERSITY.
                            PLEASURE AND PAIN,
                            HEAT AND COLD,
                            DAY AND NIGHT ARE ALL TWO SIDE OF THE SAME COIN,
                            THAT LEAD TO THE SAME PLACE OF ATTACHMENT.
                            KNOWING THIS, WE ABIDE IN THE BLISS OF ATMAN
                            UNATTACHED TO RESULTS OF OUR ACTION,
                            WE OFFER OUR ACTIONS ONTO OUR BELOVED CHOOSEN IDEAL.

                            OM SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI